Daphne Wornovitzky (00:00.096)
you
Kerri Ann Colby (00:02.43)
Okay, hi everybody. Welcome to a much overdue episode of Unfiltered Therapists. I'm Kerri Ann from Kindred Roots Therapy. And yeah, it's been more than a minute since we've done a podcast episode. Not like there hasn't been lots of yapping going on around here, but nobody has hit record. So Daphne Warnovitsky is with me today and she is the brave soul who's letting me hit record.
Daphne is a relatively new therapist at Kindred Roots and we are so lucky to have her. She's a master of social work and also has a special interest in some eating disorders and different kinds of body image work that she does with our clients here. So I have been
you know, in my head asking all kinds of questions on this topic and so thought maybe we should just formalize it and sit down together and talk about it. So thanks, Daphne, for being willing to do this.
Daphne Wornovitzky (01:16.556)
Yeah, no worries, I'm excited to be here.
Kerri Ann Colby (01:19.308)
Good. Yeah, so like I said, you come to us with some areas of specialty. You're also an approved provider for Silver Linings Foundation. There's a couple other whose acronyms I don't recall. Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (01:35.776)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's EDSNA, which is the Alberta Eating Disorder Network. And the other one is NEDIC, which is the Canadian Eating Disorder Network. They have resources on there as well.
Kerri Ann Colby (01:57.096)
Amazing, great. So just to get started, so you know, as you know, I am a woman of a certain age, 53, and you are much younger. And I felt like this was something that we were sort of seeing the back end of.
Daphne Wornovitzky (02:11.138)
Mm-hmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (02:20.098)
when I look back in my personal history and the times I grew up in, I grew up in the 1970s and 80s, and I felt like this generation has come so, so far with regards to body image issues and inclusivity and body positivity and some of those kinds of things that maybe eating disorders wouldn't be as prevalent as they are now. But from what I understand,
Daphne Wornovitzky (02:29.55)
Mm-hmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (02:50.324)
That's not happening. Is that right?
Daphne Wornovitzky (02:52.846)
Yeah, it's not. We're seeing quite high rates of eating disorders right now, especially post-COVID. There's just really high rates of eating disorders.
Kerri Ann Colby (03:07.328)
And why do you think that is? Right now.
Daphne Wornovitzky (03:10.284)
Well, I think a big piece is that, well, first of all, I think they're more reported, just like we have higher rates of depression, anxiety, is being, support is being more sought out for any mental illness. And the other piece that I think is really important to talk about is for a long time, we thought that eating disorders were only about body image and food.
And if that was the case, well, maybe we would see less eating disorders because there is that more of that inclusivity. When in reality, they're way more complex than just hating how you look and being afraid of food or being afraid of eating too much. There's so many other factors that are involved in an eating disorder. And so, you know, with COVID and the isolation, it makes a lot of sense that kids or people
just they had no social supports and so they started struggling a lot. The other piece is that diet culture, even though maybe we do have more inclusivity for people with different bodies, diet culture is still prevalent. It just goes under a different name like wellness culture. And so that's still quite prevalent now and we're not having
We're not seeing Atkins diets or specific things like that, but we are seeing a lot of intermittent fasting, a lot of, know, just watch what you eat, just exercise, but people are taking it to the extreme because they're not fitting into the body that they think is okay.
Kerri Ann Colby (04:55.392)
Hmm interesting so because yeah when I think of eating disorders again, this could be my age But I think of like anorexia and bulimia and not very much past that So what you're saying is that it's way more prevalent like tell me what? What sort of things are you seeing that you would consider disordered eating?
Daphne Wornovitzky (05:06.669)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (05:16.514)
Yeah, for sure. you know, we have anorexia is still very prevalent. The other thing with anorexia is what we're seeing is a lot of people who don't, you know, they don't present with a quote unquote malnourished body. Their body is very much malnourished, but to the eye, we're not seeing the classic image of what a person with anorexia looks like. And then
And they're very much struggling with malnourishment, with all of the symptoms of an eating disorder. They just don't fit the body type. And so they're classified as atypical anorexia and that's under the otherwise specified eating and feeding disorders. Then we have bulimia for sure, still very prevalent. We also have binge eating disorder, which is extremely prevalent as well. And then another diagnosis that we're seeing come up a lot, which is...
a little different than the other three because those three do have that very social cultural piece that's connected to them around diet culture and beauty standards. Whereas ARFID, another eating disorder, is very much associated with fear of food. It's very connected to autism spectrum disorder. And so that's another diagnosis that we're seeing come up quite a bit. And the last one, which is not in the DSM-5, but it is
coming up a lot in the eating disorder field is orthorexia, which is basically that wellness version of anorexia where it's not restricting all foods, it's clean eating. So eating, everything is about weighing food. Is it healthy? Not healthy. If it's not healthy, I'm not eating it. There's no sense of joy around food. It's all to be fit. And that is definitely coming up a lot. We see that a lot with men.
especially in gym culture for sure.
Kerri Ann Colby (07:09.542)
Mmm. and I see I never would have related that to anything disordered. that's so when does when does it change from just being healthy looking after yourself and something more disordered than that?
Daphne Wornovitzky (07:15.554)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (07:23.246)
Mm.
Well, I would, you know, ask the question, is it taking up all your time? you all, every time you eat something, you're thinking about, is this healthy for me? Is this unhealthy for me? Is food taking up more space in your brain than anything else? Then I would argue that that is disordered. Is it causing distress if you can't have a cookie? If you eat a cookie or you eat a little bit more than what you usually eat for dinner, are you having anxiety because of that?
Because, you know, food is not supposed to take up that much space in our brain. It's supposed to be where we're eating our meals and it's really hard to do that and to live a life that's aligned with your values and pursue the things that you want to pursue when all you're doing is thinking about food and exercise constantly.
Kerri Ann Colby (08:14.518)
this this is feeling familiar. I feel like I'm being called out a little bit. Because I mean, I couldn't tell you how many different diet and exercise plans I've done over my lifetime. And you know, there was always the pressure when I was younger in particular, to look a different way. You know, like, and I feel like, in my
Daphne Wornovitzky (08:17.602)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (08:28.066)
Mm-hmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (08:42.014)
generation it was you know we got our ideals from television and magazines and we thankfully didn't have social media because I can't even imagine what level that adds to it but there wasn't like you didn't you didn't have the bigger bodied people on tv and in magazines like you do now so it was always chasing an ideal and I know for myself
my family members were the ones that were, I think the first time I went on a diet, I was probably 10 with my mom, like, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, to think of that, that's kind of scary. That like, that was just the way it goes. And I know that I have friends to this day that still do all those things you're talking about, like
Daphne Wornovitzky (09:27.029)
It is.
Kerri Ann Colby (09:36.034)
judge themselves for every bite of food that they're putting in and, you know, checking fat and fibrograms and all these kinds of things. So, how do we change that narrative?
Daphne Wornovitzky (09:45.005)
Mmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (09:50.764)
I think that's the million dollar question of, you know, if it was just between people and not a systemic thing, then, you know, it would be easy as easy as having that diversity on TV or, you know, having people with different bodies going everywhere. But the reality is, is that it's still being encouraged by our medical system. This idea that what we eat is the one of the
biggest factors that determines our health outcomes is first of all, not true, but it is something that's constantly encouraged by medical professionals. And so when you're 10 years old and maybe you go to the doctor, the doctor tells your mom, hey, your kid should lose some weight and then they go on a diet. Well, that's already starting this process of...
shame and guilt around food and an unsafe relationship with food and body as well. And the other thing is, you know, it's easy as as easy as looking at our food guidelines and what is it's not encouraging, you know, intuitive eating. It's encouraging very regimented eating when in reality our bodies know how much food we need. We eat need to eat when we're babies, we're born knowing.
how much we need to eat for our own individual bodies to be full. And so then when we start implementing these rules at a really young age, it becomes hard to actually know what our body needs and for our body to actually regulate that and our metabolism to regulate that as well.
Kerri Ann Colby (11:32.076)
So explain to me what intuitive eating looks like because I feel like if I was left to my own devices, which is what I think of as intuitive eating, I would eat all the things.
Daphne Wornovitzky (11:45.742)
Mm-hmm. Totally. think that's a huge fear from a lot of people. And I know that at the beginning, it almost feels that way. You have like the freedom to eat whatever. But really, the stuff that you're eating is the stuff that you aren't letting yourself eat. That there's that voice that's causing shame around it. And so your cravings are going to go up because you can't have it. It's like telling a kid, don't touch this.
Kerri Ann Colby (11:49.91)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (12:13.518)
And so the kid's going to want to touch it. And we're the same. We're just big kids at the end of the day, no matter if we're adults. And so you say, don't eat that. It's bad for you. I'm going to want to eat it. so once we satisfy those cravings, what the research has shown, what we've started to see is that people actually have more capacity to not want the things that they haven't let themselves eat. People started craving more...
Kerri Ann Colby (12:14.399)
Right.
Daphne Wornovitzky (12:42.772)
Whole foods, I guess. And suddenly they're not eating like a trillion snacks in a day, but their appetite is more regulated because suddenly there's not that famine mindset of I actually can't eat that. And so my body's thinking that I can't eat certain foods. It's like, food is readily available. Obviously we're talking about if we have access to food.
Kerri Ann Colby (13:07.905)
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (13:07.938)
But it's like, it's there, so I don't need it right now because I'm full or I satisfied that craving. Yeah, so it does, it is scary to like, to let yourself eat whatever, but then it's about, okay, what's the fear of letting yourself eat whatever? And, you know, is there any openness to be okay to see what happens if you just let your body let you know what it needs? It's just scary.
Kerri Ann Colby (13:16.704)
Wow.
Kerri Ann Colby (13:35.628)
So yeah, and that involves a level of intuition and connection with your body too to be able to detect when you're actually full, when you're actually hungry.
Daphne Wornovitzky (13:46.08)
Yeah. And the thing with intuitive eating too, is that, you know, at the end of the day, some people, it's really hard to achieve that. Some people can never get to fully intuitive eating, but you know, it's a practice. It's something that takes time and it takes learning. And again, it's our body learning to trust us with feeding it and letting it eat what it needs to eat so that we're nourished and have the energy to do.
whatever it is that we have to do.
Kerri Ann Colby (14:16.994)
Body trust is something I'm hearing more about too. So as you know, we just announced our next book club read and it is called Reclaiming Body Trust. So I'm not very far into it yet, so I can't say, but that's basically what we need to learn to do is to trust our bodies. That's scary in a body that has never, yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (14:20.376)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (14:23.938)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (14:35.53)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (14:42.678)
No, it's terrifying for sure.
Kerri Ann Colby (14:46.56)
Wow, okay. So what else are you... when someone comes to you, I mean, I guess it depends a lot on what they come to you for, but what sort of support can you offer as a therapist to get someone on the right path?
Daphne Wornovitzky (14:56.046)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (15:10.542)
Yeah, so my first, first of all, it depends on age. I do think like there's a lot of evidence that shows that with kids, including the family is really helpful. And even adults as well, including the family in some way, whether it's your partner and kids or whether it's your parents, whatever that might be, can be really helpful. So you're not dealing with it on your own. And also a lot of the times like we were talking about before,
this culture around food is going on in the family as well, in the unit at home. And so being able to see, okay, maybe we should shift how we speak about food, how we speak about bodies, how we speak about health, so that we can have space to heal is really important. But the other thing that I believe is really important is, and again, there's lots of evidence that shows support for it is having that interdisciplinary team of support.
having support from your family doctor, having support from a dietician, and then having support from a therapist as well, which I always encourage when I'm seeing someone with an eating disorder. The other pieces are like peer support can be really helpful as well to include in that, having that person that has lived experience with an eating disorder, you know, if possible having a psychiatrist or yeah, that's kind of, you know,
first like bringing that in, referring people to those healthcare professionals that could support them. And then how I can support them as a therapist is I start off by implementing the idea that the eating disorder is separate from the self, from the person that's coming to me. And we name it, we give the eating disorder a name and
After that, when we're talking about these desires or behaviors that are very much the eating disorder, we use the eating disorder is telling me, the eating disorder wants this. And I also encourage that for family members. It's not the person, it's the...
Kerri Ann Colby (17:16.482)
Mmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (17:20.232)
and and i also encourage that for family members it's not the person it's the
Daphne Wornovitzky (17:30.209)
It's the eating disorder.
Kerri Ann Colby (17:30.452)
It's the eating sort of. That's interesting. I think my AirPods just disconnected. Can you hear me any differently? No, but I hear an echo.
Daphne Wornovitzky (17:40.524)
Yeah, I heard an echo. No, but I hear an echo.
Kerri Ann Colby (17:49.218)
don't know why. You can always edit this part out.
Kerri Ann Colby (17:57.27)
Now they're connected again. So it says, okay, there we go, we're back. Anything based on what we've talked about so far that you want to, any direction you want to go?
Daphne Wornovitzky (17:59.086)
Okay. Okay, yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (18:15.942)
Mmm... I don't know. I don't know.
Kerri Ann Colby (18:18.836)
Okay. Okay. I think I have an idea.
Daphne Wornovitzky (18:23.916)
Mm.
Kerri Ann Colby (18:26.388)
Okay, so shifting away a little bit from, you know, true disordered eating, I'm wondering about body positivity, negativity, neutrality. I keep hearing these terms. Obviously, body negativity was something, you know, there was lots of fat shaming and, you know, that sort of thing that I was familiar with in, you know, throughout
Daphne Wornovitzky (18:41.068)
Mmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (18:56.556)
growing up and you know even since then but there's definitely been a shift away from that which is a beautiful thing toward body positivity. Tell me what what is body positivity and is it good?
Daphne Wornovitzky (18:56.718)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (19:04.715)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (19:11.79)
Okay, this is going to be a very convoluted answer just because there's a lot of nuance. Obviously, we have seen lots of body shaming for years. First, you know, in person, still in person, you know, people still get bullied for their body shape. And now we see it very, very much online. People with different bodies getting body shamed, told to lose weight or change their bodies or they're too skinny, you know, whatever it might be. And we're also seeing a lot of
Kerri Ann Colby (19:13.922)
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (19:41.62)
support for different bodies, which is amazing. Great. What I will say though is typically the people that we're seeing at the forefront of the body positivity movement are people in body sizes that can access any clothing they want that aren't necessarily discriminated at the doctor's office. and so, yeah, maybe when they sit down, they have roles, but
you know, who doesn't, who doesn't have roles when we sit down? And so it ends up being, you know, body posit, the question ends up being body positivity for who? For people who live in, you know, relatively smaller mid-sized bodies, or for people who are most marginalized, which are people who live in larger bodies, who are unable to access healthcare, who are often unable to sit comfortably in a chair, in a doctor's office, in any office.
people who are discriminated against anywhere in public and who cannot shop and buy clothes at the mall because it doesn't fit their bodies. so oftentimes body positivity, it's like a bandaid over like, let's love all bodies, but are we actually loving all bodies and are we promoting the love and support of all bodies? The other thing I'll say about positive positivity is the encouragement of loving your body, which
Kerri Ann Colby (20:53.346)
you
Daphne Wornovitzky (21:07.18)
you know, is a really, really high expectation to have for ourselves to love how we look and to love our body for how it is, especially if we have trauma around body. You know, if there's ever been a situation where our body doesn't feel like it belongs to us, our autonomy has been taken away or, you know, the fact that, you know, as kids, maybe we were told to like go on a diet to change how we look. That is...
once again, gonna impact how the capacity to which you can love your body. And so that's where we talk about body neutrality, where it's more acceptance, or if you can't get to acceptance, it's just this is my body, this is what it is. I don't like it or hate it. Whatever, it's neutral. It doesn't matter, it's the body.
Kerri Ann Colby (21:55.265)
Right.
And should that go carry on not just to your relationship with your own body, but to other people's bodies as well, body neutrality. Just like if you see someone that looks hot as hell, don't tell them. And the opposite as well. It's just what it is.
Daphne Wornovitzky (22:07.852)
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (22:12.683)
You
Daphne Wornovitzky (22:18.882)
Yeah, and you know, with like for talking about hot as hell, like, I think again, it's like, why do they look hot as hell? Is it just like they're wearing a great outfit and like we want to compliment them or is it because they look skinny or, you know, so then that's ends up being my question of, are we just complimenting and reinforcing this idea that we have to be small to be pretty, beautiful or hot or
Kerri Ann Colby (22:29.431)
Yeah.
Kerri Ann Colby (22:34.39)
Right, okay.
Kerri Ann Colby (22:43.265)
Right.
Daphne Wornovitzky (22:46.786)
Can anyone be hot and can anyone be beautiful and can anyone, you know? And then when it comes to that, it's not actually about body. It's like energy or again, the outfit, how someone carries themselves. And then I'm like, great. You know, I think that's great. But there are people that would argue, you know, we shouldn't even acknowledge that stuff. Again.
Kerri Ann Colby (22:48.385)
Right.
Kerri Ann Colby (22:54.518)
Yeah.
Kerri Ann Colby (23:06.858)
Okay. So it's more about your outfit and your confidence and your hair looks amazing today. And yeah. Okay. I understand that. That makes sense. Yeah. And cause I mean, I've seen that happen to where a friend of mine had, you know, just lost it a lot of weight. And then people kept coming up and saying, my God, are you okay? Like, you know, do you have cancer? Like even that is not okay. Right? So yeah, I get that. Just it's.
Daphne Wornovitzky (23:10.816)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (23:30.594)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
No, yeah.
Kerri Ann Colby (23:36.962)
because our bodies are our bodies and they serve their purpose and they are what they are, we can't change them. Yeah, okay, so that makes a lot of sense. Okay, and then one thing I've been wondering a lot too is when you have people in your life who are always kind of, they're saying bad things about themselves. You know, like, oh my God, I feel so fat and these, I can't.
Daphne Wornovitzky (23:44.877)
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (24:00.333)
Mm-hmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (24:06.784)
I don't know, just, you know what I'm talking about. It happens all the time. It happens around here sometimes, even in a room full of well-intentioned and knowledgeable therapists. And when that happens, what's the right thing? What does a friend say to support someone?
Daphne Wornovitzky (24:09.036)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I...
Daphne Wornovitzky (24:30.846)
Yeah, and so first, I heard this one time and it really blew my mind, especially because I was, you know, healing through my own stuff. And I one time I heard the thing that fat isn't a feeling. It's not. You can't feel fat. Fat is a body shape. It's how a body looks. That's another piece of body neutrality. Fat, not bad. Skinny, not bad. Doesn't matter. And so
that's, you know, and when someone is calling themselves fat, if we're practicing that body neutrality, the response should not be, no, you don't look fat because, know, maybe they are fat and that is not a bad thing. You know, if we're really practicing that body neutrality, that body positive, it's not a bad thing to be fat. And so, you know, where I would go is from a place of concern of like, Hey, are you okay?
Kerri Ann Colby (25:09.996)
Right.
Daphne Wornovitzky (25:29.83)
you know, I heard you saying this about yourself and I'm wondering, is there something else going on? or sometimes it's, if that makes you uncomfortable and it's crossing a boundary with you to also set that up and being like, Hey, you know, when I hear you say these things, it does, it causes for me to have a certain reaction to it. It makes me feel conscious about my body. And so I'm wondering instead when you're feeling bloated.
because that's usually what happens. Someone feels bloated and then they say, I feel fat. We can say, I feel bloated or I feel uncomfortable or I need to lay down right now and unbutton my pants. That's normal. We all feel that way sometimes. And so that's one direction that we could take is.
Kerri Ann Colby (26:02.166)
I feel that.
Daphne Wornovitzky (26:20.95)
you know, checking in being like, hey, I'm hearing this. How are you feeling? Like, are you OK? How are you feeling about your body? Like this type of language, like it concerns me. The other pieces, again, around setting those boundaries or educating someone about how that could be harmful rhetoric, especially to people who do live in large larger bodies or who live in fat bodies, who, again, are constantly discriminated against when the other person is just feeling bloated and uncomfortable.
Kerri Ann Colby (26:51.292)
Mm-hmm. So it's just giving them some different language. What I sometimes say is, don't speak about my friend like that. Meaning they're my friend and they wouldn't say that to their friends. So why are they saying it about themselves, right? But sometimes those comments come from legitimate concerns for their own.
Daphne Wornovitzky (26:55.341)
Yes.
Daphne Wornovitzky (27:00.098)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (27:09.57)
right.
Kerri Ann Colby (27:16.978)
or eating habits or whatever and then my impulse is to like jump in with, know, well let's go out, like let's go out for salad. I don't know, like I don't know that I've ever said that, but you know what I mean? Like I hear what's beneath the surface of that comment and that they're unhappy with their bodies and I don't know what to say to make them feel better.
Daphne Wornovitzky (27:26.382)
you
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (27:42.702)
Right, and then that's where I would come from that place of concern regarding the disordered view of their body or eating of like, hey, are you okay? Like, is this taking up a lot of space and time? because, know, someone being concerned about their weight or whatever, that's something that, you know, a doctor, a dietician will be able to solve. At the end of the day, you're a friend, and so...
Kerri Ann Colby (28:07.585)
right.
Daphne Wornovitzky (28:10.766)
and encouraging that continued idea that if we lose weight, we'll feel better about ourselves, can again, just perpetuate this more of like, if I gain weight, I'm bad. If I lose weight, I'm good. Which we know is not true because our bodies don't define who we are as people.
Kerri Ann Colby (28:19.744)
Right, yeah, for sure.
Kerri Ann Colby (28:26.977)
Right.
Kerri Ann Colby (28:32.32)
Right. OK. That's an interesting shift in perspective for me. And then I guess, again, pointing them in the direction of some professional help, like the people that you, the team that you listed before. If it was, OK.
Daphne Wornovitzky (28:47.264)
Mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard.
Kerri Ann Colby (28:53.986)
Wow, this has been an eye-opening little discussion. So how did you end up with this area of specialty? As much as you're comfortable sharing about your own personal and professional journey that brought you here.
Daphne Wornovitzky (29:10.41)
yeah, I'm super open about this stuff. Well, you know, I, first of all, there's people in my family who have eating disorders. So I grew up seeing a lot of this stuff. My mom is a dietitian. And so I also grew up hearing a lot about health and food and, and, you know, she never came at it from a perspective of, you know, we need to lose weight or body shaming us ever.
She was not a quote unquote almond mom, which I know comes up a lot on TikToks and is part of the discourse. She was never that, but she was a dietitian. So there was a lot of conversations around eating and food and her patients and all of that, obviously in an ethical manner. And then unfortunately though, eventually I developed an eating disorder. And so I have my own lived experience and...
Kerri Ann Colby (29:58.668)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (30:06.478)
My experience accessing support was really difficult because doctors kept looking at me and telling me that I wasn't sick. They would question why I would think I have an eating disorder when I was so clearly suffering. And whenever they would do blood tests to see how low like my minerals and vitamins, like all of that, my vitals were, they could not find veins. But then they would tell me, you're fine and send me off my way or change my medication or...
God knows what. And so, you know, there was a lot of that, you're not sick enough, you're not sick enough, you're not sick enough language. And eventually when I did get the help that I needed, well, first that fueled like so much anger and passion inside of me to like, change this system. But then on top of that, in my recovery, I found the anti-diet and body neutral community. And I learned so much about how a lot of
the like our society is steeped with fat phobia and how, you know, a lot of the eating disorder thoughts are around the fear of being fat and what it actually is to be fat and live in a larger body and realizing that it's actually against my values, completely against my values to discriminate against others because of their body shape, you know, and
or anything that is different about their bodies from my own. And so when I started to realize that and realize how pervasive it was and how it actually even impacted my own access to treatment, even though I live in a smaller body, I was like, what the heck is going on here? And so I started calling out professors in school who were promoting dieting as a healthy way of going about life, especially when we know.
that one of the factors that can lead to eating disorders is dieting. The other thing was, so that was a really big piece. It was like advocacy. And then the other thing is I I started peer support. started, I was a peer mentor and I still am with this organization called Eating Disorders Nova Scotia, which provides support Canada wide. And in that, again, I found more community people that
Daphne Wornovitzky (32:27.966)
understand what it's like to go through eating disorder recovery, to experience an eating disorder, and people who had more similar experiences to my own. And then on top of that, supporting another person who is actively struggling, who is needing support, and how to be there for them based off of my own lived experience. And so with that, I was like, this is absolutely a passion area for me because, you know, you can go to a therapist who will tell you, I specialize in eating disorders.
And a lot of times they have experience and so they're able to approach it very well. But it's so different to go to someone who just gets what it is to live with an eating disorder. Cause it's so, you know, I don't mean to be, I don't mean this in a judgmental way. I kind of use it humorously, but it's just, it's a bizarre disorder, you know, to have. It's, it's, it's so wild because your body naturally wants food and there's something in your head being like, don't.
Kerri Ann Colby (33:05.58)
Hmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (33:23.639)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (33:25.74)
don't eat or, you know, get rid of this or change how you look. And it's going against so many of your natural instincts, but it's so pervasive, it's so loud. And it's just like screaming at you all the time. And so when I saw like what my life could look like in recovery and how different it is to be where I am now and how much success has come out of me choosing to take care of myself and to get help.
I was like, my God, I need to be part of this to help others as well. Yeah.
Kerri Ann Colby (33:57.14)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I thank you for sharing that. But I can see what you mean though, because with an eating disorder, it's different than any other like even substance abuse or anything like you have to eat. It's not like you can just decide that, okay, it's day one and I'm not going to eat anymore. Like that's not the answer. You need to, yeah, for real.
Daphne Wornovitzky (34:12.673)
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (34:19.938)
you
No, seriously. Yeah.
Kerri Ann Colby (34:26.658)
So, you, it sounds like based on what you said, you weren't denying that you had an eating disorder. Like, it's not like people were trying to convince you that you did. You knew you did and you were trying to seek support and support was not available to you because you didn't meet the metrics.
Daphne Wornovitzky (34:43.294)
Yeah, at the beginning my parents did start getting concerned. I got comments from friends asking me, you okay? And I was super in denial. But there was certain situations that again, just, it's so weird because when you have an eating disorder, there's this pull, I need to control everything, especially like how mine manifested. I need to control everything. I have to have control of everything.
but it got to a point where I felt so out of control and that scared me so much. And so that's when I was like, I need to actually, I cannot live like this because it's way too scary because I can't get any control. There's nothing that will provide me with the control that I'm looking for. And I've tried it for years with this eating disorder and that scared me so much.
And so, and obviously like I was very fortunate that my parents were very, very supportive of me accessing help and getting me the support that I needed. But yeah, it took a lot of advocacy from myself as well. yeah, it was, it was wild, but yeah, eventually I did know that I needed help and it's really hard to stay motivated when it's not fun. Like it's not fun.
Kerri Ann Colby (35:57.661)
I'm sure.
So you got the help you needed and now consider yourself in recovery or recovered or what does that look like in the eating disorder world?
Daphne Wornovitzky (36:12.288)
There's a lot of debate about it. Some people will say, you know, when your body reaches its weight that it has to be at. Some people say that's like only the beginning and there's still other work that needs to be done, especially around the body image piece. People will say that it's a constantly relapsing mental illness, that your recovery will be constantly filled with relapses.
Some people will say you can fully recover and some people say that's impossible, this chronic illness. In my experience, I think it's just very individual. There were many times, especially at the beginning of my recovery that I, and it was really until the last year or so that I thought I would never be able to reach a point where I felt recovered. This is a past tense experience. And now I...
do think in the spectrum of what is recovery, I do feel like I lean towards more of I'm recovered. But that's also, again, it depends on the person because some people will say being recovered is not having an eating disorder voice in your head ever. And some people will say it is, you're just able to be like, I don't wanna, this and that helpful for me right now, I'm not gonna engage with it. And so for me, I can't say that I don't have an eating disorder voice because I do, it's very much there. I'm just not engaging.
in behaviors that I used to engage in. And I'm way more, I have way more capacity to chat with it and even show compassion, which is wild because I used to respond with a lot of anger to my eating disorder. And now I can be like, Hey, I hear you. Thanks so much. We don't need to do this right now. We're safe. You know, all that stuff.
Kerri Ann Colby (37:55.362)
And that's why it sounds like it's that's why it's important to create a different an eating disorder identity Like you mentioned in the beginning because then yeah, you're not that's not your inside voice talking to yourself. It's You're taming taming the dragon so to speak Yeah
Daphne Wornovitzky (38:02.557)
Yah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (38:09.802)
No. Yeah.
Yeah, like if we're parts, like, you know, the idea that we have lots of different parts in us, the eating disorder is kind of one of those parts that's, it's really there. It serves us for a purpose. It's there to protect, but oftentimes it over, it stays for too long and suddenly it doesn't actually, it's not helping you in the way that it used to help you when you were trying to survive, for example, or when you, when
it was more necessary. And then suddenly you're just stuck with this voice. And it's really important to separate it so you can first of all allow for some self-compassion. And another thing is I think it's fair to be angry with it for a while and not approach it from the beginning with self-compassion. I know for me it helped, but eventually I got to a point where I was like just fighting with this voice in my head all the time. And now that I'm at a point where I can accept that it did actually help me get through some
stuff in my life, I can be like, hey, we're not there anymore. We're in the present where we are now. That's not then. And so I actually really appreciate the work you're doing for me, but I don't need this anymore. A lot of people, like I, at the beginning, this analogy really helped me, but a lot of people like to compare it to having an abuse of being in an abusive relationship. And so when you can like, again, externalize it and personify it to be this being that's
Kerri Ann Colby (39:17.111)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (39:41.582)
gaslighting you and love bombing you and doing all this stuff, it's really easy to be like, well, it's a lot easier to kind of separate it from yourself because it's not you doing that, it's this other thing.
Kerri Ann Colby (39:51.212)
Hmm. Right. Okay. Okay. And as somebody who is, well has raised children, how do you like, I know that I adopted a lot of my body story from my mother and I'm sure I've passed a little bit of it along to my children, despite having a lot more awareness than my own mom did. But what do we do?
Daphne Wornovitzky (39:55.31)
Mm-hmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (40:19.074)
What do we do? How do we stop the cycle? how can people start to recognize these unhealthy eating or exercise patterns in themselves and get to where we want them to be of intuitive eating and body trust?
Daphne Wornovitzky (40:31.991)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (40:37.55)
For sure. I think first, biggest thing, and I say this regardless if it's eating disorder or anything else, breaking cycle is first acknowledging that there's a cycle to begin with. It's huge. When you can acknowledge that, suddenly it's like you're breaking. It was going like this and suddenly there's another timeline that's formed. so first of all, acknowledging and wanting to do something about it, step one. Step two, or the other directions that you can go in is first of all, again,
Is it taking up a lot of space in your brain, in your kid's brain, in someone else's brain? Are they unable to actually enjoy exercise? Is it becoming this thing that they have to do? And is it consuming all parts of them? Is there any joy that's coming from it? And if the answer is no, then I would argue that that is something to check in on. Be like, hey, this is potentially going in an unhealthy cycle.
And the earlier you can intervene and do something about it, the better. Obviously, again, we don't all have access to support right away or just even knowing these things. And so it takes time. But I do think, you know, doing what you can to promote that neutrality to also just seeing the signs of
Is this something that I'm seeing joy in or is this something that I'm seeing? Like I have to do it and I'm doing it because I have to. That's, you know, going into the direction of being disordered. It's the same with exercise. Like some people enjoy going to the gym. Right now I'm at a phase in my life where I actually enjoy what I do in the gym. I see it as an adult playground. But a lot of people hate going to the gym. And so if you're still going to the gym though, even though you hate it, is there another form of exercise?
Kerri Ann Colby (42:10.614)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (42:28.438)
or movement that you would enjoy doing that you can still do because you don't just have to run on the treadmill to be quote unquote healthy. You can also do other things to move your body and that's important is moving your body. It doesn't matter how it's just moving. And so obviously not all the time, but in some capacity. so it's again, am I enjoying this? Is this causing distress? The answer is yes. Then I would, you know, that's where I would start checking in or I would start.
Kerri Ann Colby (42:43.852)
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (42:58.326)
Again, those are like red flags in my brain. And I think the big thing, you know, it's different when it's disordered eating versus an eating disorder. And maybe there's some overlap sometimes. But I think always approaching from a conversation of care and compassion if you're ever asking, like checking in on someone or seeing if someone's okay. Not approaching from...
place of shaming, but from a place of or blame, but a place of, hey, I'm concerned about you. And a lot of times people are not ready to admit that there is an issue because it's so acceptable to hate your body or to have trouble with food. And so again, it's that place of compassion and saying, I'm here if you need me to be here. I will be here when you're ready. Obviously with kids, it's like having young kids below the age of 18. It's different, but
Kerri Ann Colby (43:36.033)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (43:55.392)
especially if it's adult children or friends, that would be always my approach is, hey, I'm worried about you. I see you doing this and it's worrying me and I want to let you know I'm here if you need something.
Kerri Ann Colby (44:11.434)
Right, that's great advice. So not from a place of blame or shame, even just what you're seeing and compassion and I would expect they probably wouldn't accept those kinds of comments right away, because you know, so then you're right, it's just saying, okay, when you're ready, I'm here.
Daphne Wornovitzky (44:19.63)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (44:27.34)
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (44:31.008)
Yeah, especially because again, oftentimes they'll have that eating disorder or disordered eating voice that'll be like, no, they're seeing that I'm doing this because the eating disorders, they thrive in isolation. And so when someone spots it, it's like, my God, I'm found out. And so there can be a lot of defensiveness and a lot of frustration in that. so again, but that is cracking.
something in the system of the eating disorder is you're not hiding as well as you could and people care about me.
Kerri Ann Colby (45:01.537)
Mm-hmm.
Kerri Ann Colby (45:07.402)
Right, so hopefully it's part of breaking the cycle. Okay, one last thing because you brought it up and so what is the difference between disordered eating and eating disorders?
Daphne Wornovitzky (45:12.246)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Daphne Wornovitzky (45:21.518)
So eating disorders are diagnosable, disordered, it's a mental illness. Disordered eating is, you know, those issues with food. It's something that most people who live in a society where foods are demonized, bodies are demonized, will have. so, yeah, so eating disorder is always, it's causing intense distress, it's diagnosable. But that being said,
Kerri Ann Colby (45:26.57)
Okay.
Kerri Ann Colby (45:38.017)
Right.
Kerri Ann Colby (45:48.329)
Okay.
Daphne Wornovitzky (45:50.338)
Sometimes people will not be able to get a diagnosis with eating disorders again because of how their body looks. so, you know, but I would say the minute it crosses into that, you know, medical disorder, clinical level, then it would be an eating disorder, regardless of whether they can get a diagnosis or not. But that would be an eating disorder. Disordered eating is more, if we're really talking about a difference, be...
Kerri Ann Colby (46:11.98)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (46:19.628)
you know, your average Joe struggling with dieting or body image, which
Kerri Ann Colby (46:23.392)
Yeah, which I would say is probably the majority of people. Do you have any idea of the statistics on disordered eating versus?
Daphne Wornovitzky (46:32.354)
No, but I've definitely read that it's, especially in societies like Western societies that we have these beauty standards, know it's majority of people will have some form of disordered eating over the course of their lifetime. That being said though, it's going to look different across cultures. And I know there was a study a long time ago that there was an island like near Australia that didn't have
Kerri Ann Colby (46:40.918)
Mm-hmm.
Daphne Wornovitzky (47:00.334)
TVs for a long time, but once they started getting TVs, a lot of body image stuff, and negative body image and diet culture issues started coming up a lot. And so I would say really like anywhere, it's gonna be high. If you have a TV and there is language comparing people or telling you to stop eating certain foods, it's gonna be some form of disordered.
Kerri Ann Colby (47:24.598)
Hmm. Sad. Yeah. Okay. Well, this has been really great information. I thank you. So as I mentioned, our next book club read is called Reclaiming Body Trust. I wish I had brought my copy with me to flash on the screen, but we're meeting on September 15th here at Kindred Roots. Do think you'll be able to join us?
Daphne Wornovitzky (47:26.989)
It is sad.
Daphne Wornovitzky (47:50.622)
Yeah, for sure. I don't say why not.
Kerri Ann Colby (47:51.586)
because I think that you would have a tremendous contribution to the conversation. So I'd love it if you'd come. But yeah, no, this is really, really good information and hopefully it will spur some interesting conversations among families and friends. yeah, it's definitely made me pause to think about how I'm going to respond to the people in my life and myself, my own body story. So.
Daphne Wornovitzky (47:59.501)
Yeah.
Daphne Wornovitzky (48:15.566)
Yeah.
Kerri Ann Colby (48:19.554)
Thank you, Daphne. I really appreciate it.
Daphne Wornovitzky (48:19.596)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no worries. It was awesome.
Kerri Ann Colby (48:24.404)
Is there any last thing you wanted to share or?
Daphne Wornovitzky (48:30.614)
No, I love having this conversations. I'm always open to talking about it. And I hope that, you know, maybe there's a shift in some of the thinking when it comes to food and body image in our lives.
Kerri Ann Colby (48:45.1)
Yeah, here's open. Okay. Thanks very much, Daphne. We'll talk to you again soon. Bye.
Daphne Wornovitzky (48:50.966)
No worries. Talk soon.
